Talk:Hamas

Replacing sentence ‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’

[ I’m sorry this posting is rather long: it is a contentious issue with a rather long and rather complicated/chaotic history. Please, do not place reactions half-way this posting. ]
Mister @Vice regent: (=VR),
The sentence: “While initially seeking a state in all of former Mandatory Palestine it began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007.”, in the lead of article Hamas, strongly suggests that Hamas in 1987–2004 sought a state in all Mandatory Palestine and as of 2005 dropped that goal and settled for, went along with, the idea of a (desired, though not yet promised) smaller state in ‘the 1967 borders’. Several attempts, obviously meant to remove this very clear suggestion from the Wiki text, have been decidedly reverted, on the pretext only of ‘no consensus’. The assertion within this lead sentence is basically your (@Vice regent:) work, dating from 13 Oct 2023 (without prior discussion on talk page). Since then, marginal rewordings in it were accepted but fundamental changes to it have been rejected, one or several times with an appeal on a supposed consensus on Talk page in October 2023 (see below, in this posting). Also the alleged corroboration of that statement, ref sources Seurat2019, Roy2013 and Baconi2018, was your (VR’s) contribution, Seurat directly on 13Oct2023 (but first without her explicit quote), the others and the quote of Seurat on 18Dec2023.

The point is, that those three sources (Seurat, Roy, Baconi) seem not to clearly make the statement that Wikipedia currently makes or suggests, which I paraphrased in the top of this posting. Unbiasedly looking at what the (short) quotes from the three ref sources say, we see that they talk of Hamas in 2005–07 ‘accepting the 1967 borders’, ‘accepting statehood on the 1967 borders’, etc., but never make explicit that Hamas then (2005–07) also declared that such a state would be acceptable as a permanent status. A few colleagues have already attempted to edit the sentence to make it say that Hamas in 2005–07 simply pronounced that they can/will/would accept those borders [for a temporary situation] but not also in that case would give up on their larger quest – based on the body of the article, not on Seurat and others (@Marokwitz: 5Dec2023, @Homerethegreat: 17Dec, @Agmonsnir: 17Dec, @Alaexis: 12 Oct 2024), but these editors neglected to make clear in their edit summary that this was the ‘switch’ they wanted to ‘turn’, resulting in their edits being reverted on the formal ground of ‘no consensus’. An excuse for Mar., Hom. and Agm. is though, that until 18Dec2023, the quotes from Seurat/Roy/Baconi were not yet given in the article, thus couldn’t be refuted, while those books of Seurat/Roy/Baconi are rather hard to find.

For example, look at Seurat now, who writes: “(2006,Hamas)…its acceptance of the 1967 borders…”. But ‘accept’ for what? as what? It is only from our background knowledge(!) that we presume Hamas(according to Seurat) to refer to some (Palestinian) state, the short 65-word-quote doesn’t say that; but it also doesn’t say that in 2005–07 Hamas abandoned their larger quest for ‘all mandatory Palestine’; so, either mr. Vice regent has concluded that from further passages from that book of mrs. Seurat which he has not yet presented to us, or that abandonment in 2005–07 is not alleged in that book. The same objections hold for the quotes of Roy and Baconi. I call on mr. Vice regent (VR), to provide us with ‘better’ quotes from those (or other) books which prove that they indeed make the statement that Wikipedia currently (see the top of this posting) alleges they do. If he cannot provide such quotes, we inevitably must adapt that lead sentence (‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’), but there is a long range of options for how to:
(A--): “Since its establishment in 1987 and their 1988 charter, Hamas has envisioned a Palestinian Islamic state in all of former Mandatory Palestine. In 2017…”
Note(1): This is a very short summary of the body of the article. Ofcourse you may challenge the wording of it, and the choices of what is most relevant for the lead section, but we cannot deny that the purpose of a lead section is to summarize, in Wiki voice, the body of the article. Note(2): While the implicit statement (currently in our article) of dropping their goal of ‘all mandatory Palestine’ in 2005–07 so far is unsourced (see my argument today), the simplest solution is to just leave it out of the article;
(B--): Insert in option (A) after its first sentence: “Since 2006, Hamas has several times declared their willingness to welcome the establishment of a (Palestinian) state in the 1967 borders”.
Note(1): Again this is a summary of the body of the text (§2006–2007: 1967 borders and a truce), the precise wording of it may be challenged and improved. Note(2): I strongly advice to not use the ‘While’-construction here. By giving two independent sentences, we leave it to the reader to figure whether this was a change in Hamas ideology, or a new ultimate Hamas goal, or not; if we (needlessly) use ‘While’, we lead the reader into thinking that it was.
(C--): Insert in option (B) after its first sentence but before sentence “Since 2006…”: “A few authors have contended that Hamas in agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007 has "accepted (statehood on) the 1967 borders".”<followed by ref sources Seurat, Roy and Baconi>
Note(1): This ‘accepting … borders’, especially when nothing is offered yet, is a mysterious and (deliberately?) vague statement (see higher in this paragraph). Nevertheless, we can choose to include that (strange) statement in our article; but in that case it is not our task nor duty to re-word this strange statement into some clear, understandable, unambiguous English statement, we should just literally quote one or several of those authors (as I do in this proposal), and leave it to the reader to figure what the quote might mean. Note(2): Ofcourse we can again Wikilink those three accords with Fatah, as is done in the current Wikipedia version. Note(3): But we might also judge this (vague) opinion to be not relevant enough for the lead section of Hamas and place it in a section in the body of the article, or place it in the articles about those three signed documents.

If people want to contribute to this discussion, I ask them to start their reply (for clarity) with a code like X--, A--, B--, C-- etc.
Code X-- would mean: No fundamental changes to the message of the sentence, but perhaps an improved wording of it. In that case, please tell us, where in my reasoning I’m going wrong, to your idea.
Codes A-- and B-- and C-- would mean support for basically those options A or B or C that I just described here above, though perhaps with adapted wording.
If you would propose a fundamentally different solution, please start your reply with code ‘D--’, and describe your solution.
If a following replyer would basically support your proposal (D) though perhaps with slightly improved wording, he should also start with code ‘D--’, (or he might choose X or A or B or C); but if he would again propose a basically different solution, he should call it ‘E--’; et cetera.

In defending the assertion in the lead about Hamas dropping (in 2005–07) their final purpose of ‘all mandatory Palestine’, Vice regent has explicitly (and others vaguely) referred to a presumed consensus in a talk page discussion that started 13Oct2023: Talk:Hamas/Archive_23#RFC:_Should_Hamas_be_described_as_accepting_the_1967_Israeli_borders_in_the_lead?. In that discussion, 9 out of 13 participants seemed to agree that something important had changed in the Hamas ideology in their 2017 charter (though they perhaps didn’t agree about how that would best be phrased in the article); the idea though that in 2005–07 Hamas had dropped their goal of a (Palestinian) state in all of mandatory Palestine was not even discussed there. --Corriebertus (talk) 06:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, there’s no objection to my analysis that the mentioned lead sentence is incorrect (and needs to be corrected). --Corriebertus (talk) 11:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The reason no one replied with an objection is because you wrote an extremely convoluted post. Consider this my objection. If you want to change anything specific, write it in a simple form and gain consensus for what you want to change. We've already discussed this, where I've explained in more detail. Smallangryplanet (talk) 21:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@Corriebertus, the quotes from the sources are given right there in the citation. Seurat says "Indeed, since 2006, Hamas has unceasingly highlighted its acceptance of the 1967 borders". How does that not support "began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007"? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:00, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

No news is good news: I can make my edit?

I am surprised: last 29 November, I explained in an unfortunately long posting (Talk:Hamas#Replacing sentence ‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’), that the statement: “While initially seeking a state in all of former Mandatory Palestine it began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007” in the lead section is unsourced; and also, that it has been inserted in the article in a very hectic period – the first week after 7 October 2023 – and without prior consent in a talk discussion; and gave three suggestions to replace that sentence. No one has yet reacted. I presume then, nobody objects to my correcting that lead sentence, in any of the ways I proposed? --Corriebertus (talk) 13:08, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

You presume incorrectly. No response does not mean agreement. We can read your previous post and respond there. Smallangryplanet (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Do the 2005–07 agreements between Hamas and Fatah require/deserve/need mentioning in the lead section?

@Vice regent: (=VR): I’ve heard you say once or several times, that you’d specifically care to see some mentioning of the 2005–07 agreements between Hamas and Fatah in the lead section of Hamas.

Firstly, I don’t very well understand, why you consider those accords of so great importance as wanting to have them in the lead section. Ofcourse, I will not and cannot deny that those accords exist; and ofcourse they can be mentioned somewhere in the article, as is currently done in section Hamas#Evolution of positions. But then, a lead section can never repeat everything from the body of the article, and those three accords don’t make a so very remarkable impression on me (they are three attemps to reconcile Fatah with Hamas by (deliberately!?) vaguely(!) phrasing what supposedly unites them: the wish for ‘a Palestinian state’ and ‘confronting the occupation’) as being indispensable for the lead section.

Secondly, the way these three accords are currently presented in the lead section simply is false, incorrect, as I’ve argued on this talk page on 29 November 2024; so the choice now is to either simply remove that false mentioning or replace it with some correct statement. I tend now to just fully remove it, because: (a) the three accords themselves don’t seem very striking, influential, etc. (to a degree as being indispensable for the lead); (b) the assertion made by Baconi, Roy and Seurat about those accords, reported in our lead section now in three (short) quotes (which is not the suggested paraphrasing that stands now in our lead section), is so very vague (Hamas purportedly wanted to ‘accept the 1967 borders’, but for what? for a permanent state or for a temporary intermediate state?) that I see no good reason to copy such meaningless vagueness into our article nor into Wikipedia anywhere.

Thirdly, the scholarly or rhetorical position of Roy/Baconi/Seurat might become encyclopedically relevant for Wikipedia in case we knew whether these authors refer to a permanent or to a temporary Palestinian state within 1967 borders; if we had clarity on that point, we might first of all place that scholarly position/interpretation in the Wikipedia articles about those signed Documents – though it would probably still not qualify for the lead section of Hamas. Therefore my question to you: can you expand those three short quotes, in such a way that it becomes clear, whether these three authors refer to a permanent or to a temporary state-in-1967-borders? --Corriebertus (talk) 18:55, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree that they are given way too much weight in the article. These are not foundational documents like the original charter or the 2017 document. It's not clear why they should take precedence over many other statements made by Hamas officials over the last 20 years. Alaexis_¿question? 21:25, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. As soon as I’ll find my good energy, I’ll work on correcting that part. By the way: currently, the problem is not mainly that they get ‘too much weight’, but that they are simply represented incorrectly (see my arguing).
And yes, after the reparations I propose above, we might perhaps add something in the lead about ‘statements…over the last 20 years’. --Corriebertus (talk) 07:02, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that a single line noting the three agreements – in the context of Hamas acquiescing to the 1967 borders – which are abundantly demonstrated by RS and in the body and have been repeatedly backed by consensus in talk considering various attempts to remove it... should be removed because it's not lead-worthy?

Additionally re Roy/Baconi/Seurat, there's an existing RfC for that, where we have discussed this at truly stunning length. Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:36, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Smallangryplanet: I think you miss the point of this talk section. This talk section is about whether (and why) the 2005–07 agreements are important enough for the lead section. That the current representation of them in the lead section is incorrect (because misrepresenting what Roy/Baconi/Seurat say about them in those quotes) has been argued by me in talk section: “Talk:Hamas#Replacing sentence ‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’” (29Nov2024); you are welcome to disagree with that assessment and argument in that talk section (thus not here), by challenging any of my given arguments, overthere.
You say, that that single lead line (= sentence) about these agreements is “abundantly demonstrated by RS and in the body and have [=has] been repeatedly backed by consensus”. I’d like to hear from you, where in the body; I see that the 3 or 2 or 1 agreement(s) are mentioned in the body but outside the lead section I find no mention of them saying in these agreements Hamas has declared to no longer seek a Plst state in all of mandatory Palestine (which is what the lead currently asserts: see my argument in Talk:Hamas#Replacing sentence ‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’). I’d also like to hear from you, when the assertion that Hamas during 2005–07 gave up its claim on ‘all mndt Palestine’ has been “backed by consensus” in the Wikipedia community (or even merely been discussed): I’m not aware of such discussion having taken place.
You specifically refer to a recent (November 2024) talk discussion about section ‘Recognition of Israel’. I see no mention in it of 2005–07 agreements saying Hamas gives up its claim on ‘all Palestine’. Whatever the issues were in that discussion, it resulted in only one mention of the 2007 agreement in that Recognition section: some mr. Kear, arguing, around some unclear ‘stipulations’ and without any corroboration or quote, that in the 2007 Agreement Hamas “recognis[ed] Israel” (etc.). I’m staggered that such utterly vague excerpt of a reasoning is deemed encyclopedic by Wikipedia; you’re not suggesting to elevate that utterly vague excerpt of a reasoning, of one (ephemeral) author, into the lead of article Hamas, are you? If so: why, where and in what context? --Corriebertus (talk) 13:53, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

@Corriebertus The section in the lead in question that I think you're taking issue with does not say what you are saying it says. Let's have a look - as of 14:03 UTC 2024-12-19 it reads as follows:

Hamas has promoted Palestinian nationalism in an Islamic context. While initially seeking a state in all of former Mandatory Palestine it began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007. In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel. Hamas's repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many as being consistent with a two-state solution, while others state that Hamas retains the long-term objective of establishing one state in former Mandatory Palestine.

This is exactly what you are asking for. It describes what happened - Hamas' changing goals over the years in various agreements. It correctly reports what various experts have said, both for and against (WP:DUE) the notion that Hamas has changed or not its long term objective. If you disagree with those experts, that's not grounds for removing what they have to say from the lead. We are telling the reader what they are saying. I believe this is relevant for the lead, because the overall goals of the organisation are important for understanding the remaining content. Speaking of which, all of the content there has been substantially sourced in the body of the article and discussed at length up and down this talk page.

I'm not sure why you made this edit, since (1) it's a direct quote and (2) it explains the stipulations, and we link to the other places on wikipedia where the reader can learn about them. If those pages need building out, that's fair and something I can add to my list of things to do at some point. If it's a matter of disagreeing with their conclusions, then I don't know what to tell you. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This is a disappointing style of discussing. Is it deliberate bluff? Fantasy? Subconscious or half-conscious wishful thinking? On 14 December 2024 already, @Smallangryplanet: contended that the specific lead sentence of Hamas which I’ve taken issue with (29 November, on this talk page), is “abundantly demonstrated (…) in the body (…)”. So I ask him, on 19 December: “Where in the body”? On 19 Dec, Smallangryplanet (Smp) simply ignores that question and only repeats that that lead sentence is “substantially sourced in the body(…)”. But the claim that something is stated in the body of a Wikipedia article, or even in a Wiki discussion, needs to be made explicit on demand; if it can’t be made explicit, it is not a valid argument in a discussion, but either a mistake or a bluff.

The same holds for Smp’s contention 14 Dec that that lead sentence is “backed by consensus in talk(…)”: I ask him 19 Dec “when the assertion” as made in that lead sentence “has been backed by consensus”, again Smp does nothing else than repeat that it “has been(…)discussed at length(…)”. If such a claim can’t be made explicit on demand, it is not a valid argument, in a Wiki discussion.

I’m not disagreeing with the notion that Hamas, possibly, has changed its “goals” and/or “long term objective” over the years. I’m only saying, that the way in which Hamas purportedly has changed them, as currently alleged in that one specific lead sentence of Wikipedia which I’ve taken issue with (29 November, on this talk page), is incorrect/unsourced, and is not the way how those three given references (Roy etc.)—nor any other sources in the article—describe Hamas having changed their ideas. I’ve carefully explained my criticism on that lead sentence, in that posting of 29 Nov.; especially to give Vice regent, who made the sentence (for the greatest part), the chance to defend that sentence; which he appears not to be interested in. There are possible ways to correctly describe the (possible) changes in Hamas’s ideas; I’ve given several examples for that in that posting of 29 November. --Corriebertus (talk) 11:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

There is a whole section devoted to this.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, founder of Hamas, who died in 2004 (killed by Israel), has at unreported date offered Israel a ten-year hudna (truce, armistice) in return for establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Yassin later added, the hudna could be renewed, even for longer periods...

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On 28 June 2006, Hamas signed the second version of (originally) 'the Palestinians' Prisoners Document' which supports the quest for a Palestinian state "on all territories occupied in 1967"...

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In an August 2006 interview with The New York Times, Ismail Haniyeh, senior political leader of Hamas and then Prime Minister of the Palestinian National Authority, said: "We have no problem with a sovereign Palestinian state over all our lands within the 1967 borders, living in calm."

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In February 2007, Hamas signed the Fatah–Hamas Mecca Agreement, stressing "the importance of national unity as basis for (...) confronting the occupation" and "activate and reform the PLO", but without further details about how to confront or deal with Israel. At the time of signing that 2007 agreement, Mousa Abu Marzook, Deputy Chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau, underlined his view of the Hamas position: "I can recognize the presence of Israel as a fait accompli (amr wâqi') or, as the French say, a de facto recognition, but this does not mean that I recognize Israel as a state". More Hamas leaders, through the years, have made similar statements.

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and so on. Citations amply provided on the page itself. I am not sure what else you are looking for. (Note that these quotes are just a smattering of examples.) Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The most pertinent allegation here is that the information is false. I'll reply to that claim in "Replacing sentence ‘While initially… signed with Fatah…’".VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 December 2024

Update Leader in the Gaza Strip from Yahya Sinwar to Mohammed Sinwar. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 22:12, 13 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jeffrey34555 on that page there's as yet still no citation for Mohammed Sinwar assuming leadership in the Gaza Strip. I can find a lot of rumours and people assuming that he will take over, but no confirmation - do you have a reliable source explicitly confirming that? Smallangryplanet (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't have a source; I just saw that Wikipedia says that Mohammed Sinwar is the new leader, and thought an update was needed. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jeffrey34555 where does it say that? Someone's obviously jumped the gun. Hamas temporary committee still says no leader has been chosen. Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:37, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I've removed references to it from Mohammed Sinwar as it's still unconfirmed, have you seen it anywhere else? Smallangryplanet (talk) 17:42, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

In Yahya Sinwar, it still says that he was succeeded by Mohammed Sinwar in the infobox. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:24, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Updated, thank you. Smallangryplanet (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: this is neither an uncontroversial improvement nor one that has consensus. Please see WP:EDITXY for more information of what an uncontroversial improvement is. M.Bitton (talk) 12:37, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, when I made the edit request I was unaware that there were no citations supporting it. Just thought that updating was in order since a lot of the articles I saw on Wikipedia said that Mohammed Sinwar was the new leader. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 22:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Use of 'X' next to deceased persons in main infobox

Just curious where the convention for using an 'X' next to each dead individual in the organisation comes from? Is this an accepted style on Wikipedia that I can read about?

Seems slightly odd that the deaths of these people is not linked from their own articles where appropriate, and it made me question the neutrality of the article, as it almost reads like a literal checklist of killings

(Forgive me if is this is an accepted standard style though - just very difficult to search for) 2A01:4B00:EE31:A900:B455:44AF:C641:16CA (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

It's from Template:Assassinated. No comment on the wisdom of symbol choice. Symbol choice can be tricky (e.g. a dagger for KIA is sometimes mistaken for a Christian cross, which can annoy people). You can see where the symbol for assassinated has been used here. Sean.hoyland (talk) 03:03, 18 December 2024 (UTC)